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Reputation:99
Level:Superstar
Since:Sep 18, 2006
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This is a good point. At some point in time cooperation and compromise became a more valuable tool for human survival than a me first mentality. Humans still had the me first urge inside of them but they would have to do so at the risk of being cast out of the group or even worse eliminated. If I stold the food of others I would not be very valuable to the group. If I didn't do my part during the hunt I might not be needed by the group. Humans who had to fend for themselves were less likely to survive.
Cher,
Forgot to comment on this but I just wanted to add how amazing I find it that the "selfish gene" of darwinism produces such altrusitic results.
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Reputation:98
Level:Superstar
Since:Nov 6, 2006
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Cher,
I agree...good thought provoking stuff!
I use to have your perception until I saw enough evidence to convince me that my perception at the time was not reality. It was someone else's perception which was thrust upon me at an impressionable age. So I changed it based on the evidence I was reviewing, the fact that I don't have a personal relationship even though I have tried, and that there are a billion different people claiming a billion different things.Perhaps to 'split semantic hairs" l disagree with your first sentence above. However, if you wrote the following, I would agree: I use to have your perception until I saw enough evidence to convince me that my experience did not support my current perception. IMO, your position tends to hide behind the idea that there are many many opinions/claims about God, giving permission not to choose.
I am not making a claim about God. You say that you are not making a claim about God, but you are...IMO, you are claiming that other's claims about God are inconsistent therefore incorrect. You are claiming that, according to your observation/experience, God is not personal and does not communicate accurately to people, because if he/she did there would be a consistent message. Cher, in several posts you have stated that you are not making a claim about God, perhaps you are not making a claim about who/what God is, but you are making a strong claim about who/what God is not. Of course this is my opinion about your opinion. :-)
I wrote: IMO there is more evidence that God exists and communicates with people than not. You replied: If 40% of the Christian religion don't believe God is personal I don't see how you can say this.
Reality and absolute truth is not based on polls and public opinion, it never was and never has been. As I have stated to you before, if you are going to wait for 100% of the people to agree on God, his attributes and mode of operation, you will never come to a conclusion.
In my experience it's the extreme minority of folks who claim they actually have a personal communicative relationship with God. Those that DO claim a personal relationship differ on a multitude of subjects from abortion to homosexuality to war to wrath to salvation. OK. Am I hearing you correctly? According to your God box, if God is a personal relationship God he must communicate accurately and thoroughly to people, so they have the same convictions, social stances and perception?
Paris, France....have you been? Neither have I.
I've seen photos. I've seen maps. There are movies about Paris. A a young student I read of the history of France as an European country, whose capital city is Paris. I've heard of people who go there and feel romantic and find love. I believe there are songs about Paris. I've been told of a tower called Eiffel. I've seen photos of this tower and have been up in a replica in Cincinnati, Ohio. I've never spoken with the Mayor or any city official of Paris. Even if I had, I probably wouldn't have understood them, because I don't speak their language. I'm told French is their language. Five people who claimed that they lived and/or visited Paris, they each tell me of similar features of Paris, but it is not exact. One claims it is very romantic, another adamantly disagrees. They tell me completely different sections and/or histories of France, their stories not corroborated. These five people tell me of 5 to 20 people that they met or know in Paris, none of the people are the same, they may have similar first names, but not the same people. Their political views are different, two of the three are a bit more politically conservative than the other three, which are very liberal, no two are identical.
As I've grown up I've come to the conclusion that what I was taught and what I understood about Paris is just not true. 40% of high school graduates cannot tell me the capital of France and 60% cannot locate it on a map. 93% of Americans cannot speak French. Only 8% claim they have been there. Like I said, I've never spoken with someone from Paris. Or if I have, I did not recognize them as being from Paris. Even if someone called me from Paris, I would be skeptical...how can they prove that they are from France? According to my perception Paris does not exist. People who claim they are from Paris do not agree about much. They definitely are not in 100% about all things, they aren't even in agreement about 50%.
You may suggest that I get on a plane and boat and travel there. I tell you it does not exist. Why should I waste my time on something that, for all I can tell, does not exist?
There is no proof that Paris exists. My perception is reality.
Your turn.
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Reputation:98
Level:Superstar
Since:Aug 11, 2006
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Hicks,
Go Yellow Jackets!
Your turn.
Batter up...
Perhaps to 'split semantic hairs" l disagree with your first sentence above. However, if you wrote the following, I would agree: I use to have your perception until I saw enough evidence to convince me that my experience did not support my current perception.
Perhaps to split them even more I don't contend that you and I had the same religious position or conviction. I was just refering to my being Christian and believing in Biblical God and the divinity of Jesus.
IMO, your position tends to hide behind the idea that there are many many opinions/claims about God, giving permission not to choose.
You must not have read much of my last 1000 posts or so if you think I am hiding behind this idea. There is SOOOOO much more besides the point above.
You say that you are not making a claim about God, but you are...IMO, you are claiming that other's claims about God are inconsistent therefore incorrect. You are claiming that, according to your observation/experience, God is not personal and does not communicate accurately to people, because if he/she did there would be a consistent message. Cher, in several posts you have stated that you are not making a claim about God, perhaps you are not making a claim about who/what God is, but you are making a strong claim about who/what God is not. Of course this is my opinion about your opinion. :-)
There is a big difference between "It doesn't seem to me that God is personal" and "God is loving and seeks a personal relationship". One is an absolute CLAIM made on God's behalf and the other is less than absolute speculation not made on God's behalf. Do you see the difference?
I wrote: IMO there is more evidence that God exists and communicates with people than not. You replied: If 40% of the Christian religion don't believe God is personal I don't see how you can say this.
Reality and absolute truth is not based on polls and public opinion, it never was and never has been. As I have stated to you before, if you are going to wait for 100% of the people to agree on God, his attributes and mode of operation, you will never come to a conclusion.
OK. Am I hearing you correctly? According to your God box, if God is a personal relationship God he must communicate accurately and thoroughly to people, so they have the same convictions, social stances and perception?
No, I don't say God (if God exists) must do anything. If God is personal and craving a relationship it would make sense to me if He were more accessible, less ambiguous, or sending a more coherent message to everyone regardless of location.
There is no proof that Paris exists. My perception is reality.
This story about Paris is the exact reason why I can't trust the perception of any one person other than my own when it comes to subjective opinion. You are referring to a lot of subjective concepts which are up to individual opinion. Is Paris nice? You may get responses all over the board on that one. There are absolutes (barring a grand illusion). Is there or is there not a intersection of such and such a street. Is Paris located at such and such longitude and latitude? Your individual perception may skew your thoughts on the last two but they can be proven to an accuracy of about 99.99%.
I didn't want to take this perception thing to the "grand illusion" extreme. I was just offering it as a reason why we all have differing opinions about God(s) what they are like, and whether or not they exist. There is no KNOWN way to have everyone be able to objectively verify the same information about God.
There was another question that came up between Wild and Smoove. Why doesn't God heal amputees? How do you know he hasn't? Well, again here we are taking things to the extreme. There are no known accounts of limb regeneration. There are known accounts of people beating cancer, getting their sight back (Wild), waking from a coma or even perceived death. If we are going to debate these things we may as well be debating a "grand illusion"? How do you know God has never healed an amputee? Well, I guess we don't but then again we don't know that trees don't fly around when we aren't there. We don't know that elephants use telepathy and talk in English. There is no evidence for it but...
Anyway, this is already too long. Gotta get busy. Leaving for vacation tomorrow night and will be out for 5 days. If I don't get back I hope everyone has a great holiday weekend! Gators, please let KIR know that I wish her the best in her struggle and that I said a silent prayer for her just in case
I was just questioning the "more evidence" part. I don't think there is any evidence you can show me that God communicates with people. It seems to me that a large majority of the world have never had a relationship with Biblical God. Some of the others tend to contradict one another. The remaining few COULD boil down to perception.
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Reputation:98
Level:Superstar
Since:Aug 11, 2006
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Hicks,
That last line goes in between the two boxes with no response between them. Don't k | |
