End Times

I thought it would be interesting to have a discussion as to when the 2nd coming of Jesus will be.   There are many schools of thought: Pre-trib., mid trib, post trib, and none of the abobe.  I personally lean post trib., but have found all have good points.  I basically have become pan-trib,  meaning when Jesus comes back things will pan out fine.   Here is a link to very interesting prophetic site.

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jjoey,

Thanks for starting this.  Interesting discussions to come, I am sure.

When I think of pre-, mid-, and post-tribulation events, I think that refers to the rapture of the church and not to the second coming of Jesus to the earth.  In the rapture, we will be 'caught up to meet Him in the air' so Jesus does not actually return to earth during that event.

I am a pre-tribulation rapture believer, but there is scriptural support that can be interpreted to support all three position.  I think you have to look at the Bible in its entirety and prophecy in its entirety to arrive at a belief, but we are also told that 'no man will know the hour' of His return and that He will come 'like a thief in the night.'  We are admonished to be ready for the rapture to happen at any time.

Jesus' second coming, I believe, will be to establish the Millenniel Kingdom for His thousand year reign on earth.  After that will be the war to end all wars and then the creation of the new heavens and the new earth. 

I'll have to do my research on each portion to give scriptural references.

We are told there will be wars and rumors of wars but this will only be the beginning of the end times.  There will be other signs.  Just when everyone is saying 'Peace and safety' the conflict between Isreal and her enemies will begin.  The war will end when a 7 year peace deal is brokered.  The person who brokers the deal between Isreal and her warring enemies will be the Antichrist emerging to power.  This will also be the beginning of Daniel's 70th week, or the tribulation period of seven years.  Halfway through the 7 years, the Antichrist will establish himself as god and the Great Tribulation will begin.  I believe the church will be raptured before Daniel's 70th week.  Christians will be raptured, but Bibles will not be so there is the possibility of people converting during the tribulation period; they will become the martyrs during the Great Tribulation.

Although the Bible gives descriptions of some of the traits of the Antichrist, those traits are open to interpretation.  He will not regard the religion of his fathers--will he be a practitioner of a different world religion than his literal family, will he be an atheist, etc.  He will not regard the company of women--will he be a single, celebate man, some have even gone to the extreme of claiming he will be gay, some interpret this to mean he will be a priest who cannot marry.  I think the 'pin the tail on the Antichrist' in an attempt to identify him before hand can be a misleading, fruitless task.  The one thing we know for certain is that he brokers the cease fire between Isreal and her warring enemies.

Sorry to throw out so many ideas off the top of my head.  I need to document the various positions from scripture, but I look forward to people's opinions on what the end times will be and how the signs may be interpreted.

We are expected to know these things, as Jesus said, "He who has an ear, let him listen."  We are to recognize the signs and be prepared.  In fact, we are to live prepared for the rapture because no one knows the day and time and it will happen in an instant.  'Two will be in the fields; one will be taken, the other left.'  It seems that normal life is in process at the time of the rapture.

I am eager to hear what others have been taught, and I will do my homework to provide the scriptural bases for what I have been taught.

Thanks for taking this topic up!

Good to be back on this topic again, I also tend to believe pre-trib rapture.

I know there are perhaps more profound questions, but the one I would like to have answered are whether ayone thinks that the seven trumpets, the seven seals and the seven cups or vials could happen simultaneously or could be so small that we really don't take notice for the most part?

The bowl being poured and of the sea going dead has happened twice in the last century, the dates escape me, but I believe they were 1978 in the Sulu Sea and in 1987 off the coast of Maine. The fishing trawlers went out and came back empty, the seas were either eerily quiet or dead. So my second question is, can a sign happen twice? Are we given second chances even though the countdown to Armageddon had begun?

Since I like things in threes, my last question is that of the ancient mysteries of the South American plains, Easter Island, the Great Pyramid of Giza, and the lost city of Atlantis. Are these unexpainable phenomena cause for us to seek answers from the stars? Are the 'Angels' of the Bible really aliens that have been granted dominion over the Earth by God? What of the recent Vatican announcement proclaiming that there just might be life on other planets and UFOs might just exist?

I have many other questions that trouble me, but I will wait to see if there is some type of answer that I can see as well from some of the more informed members here. I know none of us really 'know' the answers, but it is interesting to speculate what God has in mind, even if we are too stupid to understand it. Maybe evolutionists can see that our understanding of the universe is as an ape's and therefore we should be related to them. Pretty far stretch, but I find many of them hide their discomfort behind a cloud of arrogance, which is self fulfilling turbulance at best. Back to seeking the answers.

regards

I saw a thing about Easter Island on Nat. Geo or HIstory Channel, the statues were made by a thriving civilization, that ended up destroying themselves as all their resources went into the maintenence and construction of the statues, it was very interesting.... Atantis, who knows???

One of the scriptures that is used a lot by pre-tribs is in Matthew 24:  "2 shall be in the field and 1 shall be taken".   I think the pre tribs take that one out of context as it says prior to that the end times shall be as the days of Noah.   In that scenario, the good (Noah and family) were left on the earth and the wicked removed.   So many scriptures back all of the theories.   I had a pastor once who I really respected for his knowledge and he believed we were already in the millenium as the devil cannot take a soul unless they choose to let him have it. (this is a simplification of the doctrine)  Sounded strange to me, but  he was such a man of God, I won't ever totally discount it.

I'm just beginning my research to answer these questions as best I can.  As to the trumpets, seals, and vials and whether they are sequential or simultaneous, I find a discussion of the seals in "The Apologetics Study Bible" from Ravi Zacharias International Ministries in the comments on Revelation 5:1-7:

"Divine insight into the future is not available to those who are merely curious or clever.  It is available only through Jesus, the Lion-Lamb, who has overcome (vv. 5-6) through the cross and the tomb.  The Greek word biblion refers to this scroll with seven seals (v. 1) on the outside.  It [the scroll and its contents] are not open for viewing until all seven seals have been removed."

And comments on Revelation 6:1-8:1:

"The scroll in the Lamb's hand (v.  5:7) is not open for viewing until all seven seals have been removed.  Six of those seals are removed in Chapter 6.  The two scenes  in Chapter 7 (7:1-8 and 7:9-17) form an interlude prior to the removal of the seventh seal (8:1).  There is much parallelism between this section and the section of Jesus' Olivet discourse (Matthew 24:4-14).  If both passages [Rev. 8:1 and Mat. 24:4-14] are referring to the same events and timing, the unsealing sequence in  Rev. 6:1-8:1 occurs prior to the great tribulation (Rev. 7:14)."

This indicates to me that the events corresponding to the opening of the seals is sequential not simultaneous.  It also indicates that there is a time gap before opening the seventh seal and that gap includes events described elsewhere in the NT.

In comments on Rev. 6:1-8:

"The lifting of the first four seals is portrayed as four horsemen.  There is a debate as to whether any or all of what is pictured here has already taken place.  While conquest (v. 2), widespread warfare (v. 4), and devastating effects from famine on economies (vv. 5-6) have occurred throughout history since the first century A.D., no catastrophe has devastated a full fourth of the earth (v. 8)."

So even though we have seen many of the events described in the end times already occurring in history, we have seen them on a smaller scale than what is described in Revelation and other prophecy.  The distinction is the global effect, the magnitude of the event--we have seen weather events, earthquakes, famines, etc., but not on the scale described in Revelation.

In comments on Rev. 8:1:

"When the seventh seal is lifted, the scroll is finally completely open (5:1).  The half hour of silence in heaven echoes Zeph 1:7, indicating that the Day of the Lord begins with the trumpets.  Before the trumpets begin, the prayers of the saints go up before the Lord (vv. 3-4).  The pause implies that God's answer to the prayers for the avenging of the blood of the martyrs upon the earth dwellers, the focus of the hour of testing, begins with the trumpet judgments.  The first four trumpet judgments 
(vv. 8:8-12) bring judgment upon a third of the focus of the judgments, making them more intense than the seals, which effect a fourth of the earth.  The terror intensifies with the remainng three trumpets.  The seventh trumpet is open-ended, including the bowls of divine wrath (15:1-19:6), extending to the second coming of Christ."

Here it seems is the only place where the seven bowls take place during and after the seventh trumpet.  All other seals, and the six trumpets seem sequential, one after the other, with some interludes between in which God deals with the prayers of the saints who were martyred and want God to avenge their murders.

This is my  attempt to study and interpret from writers far better educated than I.  I may have this right or wrong so don't depend on my answers as indisputable.  I am eager to hear what others think about the order (sequential or simultaneous)  of the seals, trumpets, and bowls, and whether any/all have already occurred.  I feel confident that they have NOT occurred as prophesied in Revelation because we have never