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Reputation:95
Level:Superstar
Since:Mar 24, 2007
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Just a couple of other thoughts:
OL Browns - agree
QB Steelers - agree
WR Browns - agree
TE Even - disagree. in every other category you included key rookies. Why didn't you consider Rucker? Winslow/Heiden/Rucker is even with Miller/Spaeth. I consider Heiden and Spaeth about even. Winslow is a better receiver than Miller. Miller is a better blocker but is a solid target, unfortunately he cannot spread the field like the Browns TEs. Also Pro-Bowl Winslow Advantage: Browns
RB Steelers - agree because of quality depth
DL Steelers - agree but could flip this season
LB Steelers- agree espcially on depth
DB Steelers - I conceed that the Browns have greater talent but less experience at CB and depending on how they perform the edge would go to the Browns. But my feeling is that our Safeties Jones and Poole need to be considered in you evaluation, not just Polamolu. This will be their 2nd full year together and they certainly showed solid play in the last half of the season. They are only going to get better this season. I agree that it might flip Very close slight edge to Steelers
KR/PR Browns - agree
Kick Coverage Browns - agree
K/P I was looking at it from a career perspective not just last season. Since we disagree let's call it: Even
Score: Browns 5-5 (2 even)
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Reputation:99
Level:Superstar
Since:Nov 26, 2006
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DK again overstepping your bounds. I think almost EVERY Browns fan on here(or at least the ones that matter) has said UNTIL the Browns win, its the Steelers division. We dont need you to be our "board monitor".
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Reputation:95
Level:Superstar
Since:Oct 15, 2007
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Boy Mano, when you talk about stirring up the pot you really lay into it...
Im going to attach your entire post with my comments underneath each section...
Offense:
O-line - An obvious point of great contention on here. The Browns proved to have one of the best O-line's in the league last year and the Steelers had, arguably, one of the worst. Advantage - Browns
Agreed...Advantage - Browns
QB - DA went to the pro bowl as an alternate and certainly had a very good season. It was, though, just one year and there are serious question marks about his late season performance. Ben Roethlisberger had his best season as a pro and solidified himself as, at least, a top 10 and maybe top 5 QB in the league. Advantage - Steelers
While I agree Ben Roethlisberger is a top tier QB, I have to disagree with this section. The Browns are sitting better than any team in the NFL right now IMO. They have a Pro-Bowl QB starting in Derek Anderson. While he may be questionable, he does have success working in the Browns offensive system. Thenthey have a franchise quality back-up QB in Brady Quinn. Now, before you start grilling me (Beachbum), let me explain. If you think for one second that Brady Quinn is not capable you are kidding yourself. Brady Quinn is as smart as they come. He has had the past year to develop, and learn the Browns system. He has not developed the rapport that Derek Anderson has with the receivers, but...if he were to start he would be successful as well. Given the Browns 2 quality QB's the edge for me goes to the Brownies. Advantage - Browns
WR - Tough one, although the Browns fans might think its a no brainer. No question that Braylon Edwards is one of the best in the league. Stallworth and Jeruvicius are both very good receivers in their own right. I like Paul Hubbard and think he has a good shot at making the team as the #4 guy. Santonio Holmes, while not in Braylon's league, has proven himself to be a top tier WR. Hines Ward is, well, Hines Ward. Limas Sweed is unproven, but the talent is there for him to have an impact this year. Nate Washington will be the #4 guy. I think its very close here, but...Advantage - Browns(slightly)
OK...lets be serious here. Braylon Edwards is now a top 10 receiver in the NFL, top 3-5 in the AFC. Donte Stallworth is a perfect fit as a number 2 guy to create mismatch after mismatch. Joe Juerivicous is arguably the best receiver playing the # 3 spot in the league. His hands are unbelieveable, and he can go over the middle. Paul Hubbard will be a quality #4, and definitely an upgrade over the likes of Tim Carter. Although he will not get much playing time. Now Santonio Holmes emerged last year, but still is in no way a top tier receiver. His recorded 52 receptions for 942 yards, and 8 TD's last year to put him 28th in the NFL. I don't think you can say YET, that he is a top tier receiver...maybe after this season. Now onto the Hines Ward segment, or as I am sure it will be better known as the segment that makes every Steeler fan hate me. Hines Ward is NOTHING like he used to be. And...for the record...I don't think he used to be much either. Hines Ward, over his 10 year career has averaged 837.70 yards per year, and 6.5 TD's per year. Those, fellow fans are #2 numbers. I could not believe the Steelers even put up with his holdout for crazy money. He had 4 years out of 10 where he surpassed 1,000 yards, and 2 of those years were mearly single digit over (i.e. 2001 - 1,003 yards, 2004 - 1,004 yards). The ONLY reason I give Hines Ward respect...and I do give him respect is his fearless ability...especially when he goes over th middle. He takes hits more than any other receiver, and worse than any other receiver would ever take. Now, Nate Washington. Nate Washington is a perfect #4 receiver. Deep Threat ability, and mismatches. The problem is that he is currently #3. Sad to say, I don't think he is good enough in the #3 spot...which is where he will play (yes Limas Sweed will be the #4 guy this year). Lastly, Limas Sweed. Let me start by saying I love this guys size, talent, and ability. Let me end this by saying he won't see the field as much, and everybody knows that receivers don't break out until their 3rd year pro.
Advantage - Not even close...Browns
TE - K2 is the man. Great receiving TE, but there is little behind him for depth and he struggles as a blocker. Heath Miller is not the receiving threat that K2 is, but he has great hands and makes the plays he's asked to make. He's a great blocker and was called by Mike Ditka, a Hall of Fame TE, the best all around TE in the league. The Steelers also have a solid backup in Matt Spaeth who could be a starter on many teams in this league. Advantage - Even(and only because of K2s big play ability, otherwise it would go to the Steelers)
While I am glad that you acknowledge that Kellen Winslow is the man (also a f***in soldier), I am surprised you would make this even. Winlsow is like Hines Ward. He gets hit alot. But, he holds onto the ball, and produces big plays, for big numbers. Behind Winslow you have Steve Heiden. Heiden is a great blocking TE and he is underrated immensley. Behind Heiden you have Martin Rucker. This guy was a steal in the draft. Great hands just like Winslow, but only mediocre run blocking. Which brings me to lastly Darnell Dinkins. Dinkins is not a regular in the lineup at TE, but he has good run blocking ability, just like Steve Heiden.
Advantage - Browns
RB - Lewis had a great season last year, but he isn't getting any younger and there isn't much behind him for depth. With Willie Parker, Rashard Mendenhall and Mewelde Moore on the roster this is the easiest of the bunch. Advantage - Steelers
Mostly agree here. I think Lewis again is a product of our system, mainly our offensive line, but we are lacking in depth, and Jamal Lewis is getting old. I would like to see Jerome Harrison get some more oppurtunities as I think he could shine...but we will see. You also have to factor in that we have one of the best FB's in the league in Laurence Vickers. Willie Parker is coming off of an injury, but should recover, and the addition on Rashard Mendenhall should give a great 1-2 punch with Moore adding depth. Not sure how quickly Mendenhall makes a difference here...I still have to give the advantage to the Steelers here.
Advantage - Steelers
Defense:
D-line - The Steelers have, arguably, the best 3-4 D-line in the game with Keisel, Hampton, and Smith. Chris Hoke is a solid backup NT, but the rest of the depth is atrocious. The Browns made several off season moves to improve their D-line, including the signings of Shawn Rogers and Corey Williams. For the first time in years, this is a close call, but the advantage goes to the proven players here. Advantage - Steelers
Agreed, although I have to disagree with you last statement. You say the advantage goes to the proven players, yet Rogers and Williams are proven NFL players. But, with Hampton at the nose, and Smith outside of him especially healthy again, the edge has to go to the Steelers here. Advantage - Steelers
Linebackers - Kamerion Wimbley is a fantastic football player. Beau Bell was a steal and there are some solid guys on the roster. Willie McGinest is in the downside of his career, but you can't discount the leadership quality he brings. The Browns have a good group of LBs. James Harrison made the pro bowl in his first year as a starter and the loss of Clark Haggans on the other side should be a blessing in disguise with LaMarr Woodley taking over. Woodley had 4 sacks in very limited action last year as a rookie and has the look of an outstanding 3-4 OLB. Farrior and Foote are solid ILBs, and with Timmons pushing them, and possibly taking Foote's starting job, there is good depth all throughout the LB corps. Advantage - SteelersI think the browns look good at LB, but they need to add some depth, and get proven play out of some. I would even like to see D'Qwell Jackson move to the outside and put Beau Bell on the inside spot to shake things up a bit. But, I agree the nod definitely goes to the Steelers here without a doubt. Advantage - Steelers
DBs - This is interesting to me. The Browns have a very young, unproven group of DBs. They appear to have a lot of talent, but the inexperience would scare me. The Steelers, on the other hand, have loads of experience, but there are some question marks about the talent. Ike Taylor is solid. Deshea Townsend is solid, but aging. McFadden hasn't proven he can beat out Townsend. Ryan Clark is coming off some serious health concerns and his backup, Anthony Smith, has his own problems. The only sure thing in the Steelers secondary is Polamalu. Fortunately, that is more of a sure thing than anything the Browns have so...Advantage - Steelers(although, this one could change as the season progresses)
I don't entirely agree with this, but I have to agree with some. Troy Polamalu is unbelievable. And Ike Taylor, Deshea Townsend are both OK (not solid in my mind). Problem for me with this is quality depth. The Browns are young. Plain and simple. Both second year players as starters. We have quality safeties, especially in Sean Jones, but given the lack of experience the edge goes to Pittsburgh. Advantage - Steelers
So, I have the final tally at 5-2 for the Steelers with one draw. This puts me at 4-4 dead even draw. So...we cannot let it stay at a tie...here is the tie breaker...
Special Teams
The Steelers special teams play is mediocre (gentleman that is being generous). They have trouble making tackles, and are simply decent at returns. Look at what the Browns have done in the last 2 year against the Steelers...Josh Cribbs averages (since he became the number 1 kick returner in 2006) 31 yards per return with 2 TD's over 4 games. That may not seem like much, but consider that he had 1 game with 204 return yards, and another with 150. That speaks to tackling and breakdown of the Steelers special teams.
Advantage - Browns
So, in my final breakdown, the Browns have the edge this year...5-4. Now lets see what stirring the pot this way brings...
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Reputation:99
Level:Superstar
Since:Sep 7, 2006
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gmiller...you are absolutely right, there were questions about Ben after his first two seasons. But for every Ben, there are many more one year wonders. I'm not saying that DA is one of the one year wonders, but you can't deny that it is just as much of a possibility. Hence, the questions marks...
As for your secondary, I think I did give them some credit for being talented, just unproven, which is why I give the early edge to the Steelers secondary.
The Tight End debate is going to be one where we will have to agree to disagree. I have all the respect in the world for K2, but you guys are underestimating Heath. He flies under the radar, but he is truly one of the best all around TEs in the game. I can't deny Kellen's impact on the offense as a receiver. 82 rec, 1106 yards(13.5 avg), 5 TDs is fantastic for a TE. Those are WR numbers, truly. The reality, though, is that he was used as the #2 receiver in the offense, not as a true TE.
Heath had 47 rec for 566 yards(12.0 avg) and 7 TDs. For a guy who was used primarily as a true TE and security blanket for Ben, those are pretty good receiving numbers. Heath is a guy who doesn't have to come off the field in the running game. He is a powerful run blocker on the edge. He catches everything thrown his way and plows his way to extra yards after every catch.
As for the backups, Matt Spaeth wasn't used much because Heath is so versatile, but the kid is starter quality.
Overall, K2 might make the TE an advantage for the Browns, but you will have a hard time convincing any Steelers fan of that because not one of them would give up Heath for Kellen.
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