*sigh* I just don't get environmentalists sometimes. More often then not, they come off as nothing more then lifestyle elitists.
I read somewhere that the public opinion, even on the Left Coast has swung toward coastal drilling. I wonder if you think it will happen? I don't suppose anyone would notice if they did it off Long Beach, but what about those adorable little otters and abalone?
Like you, I don't think it is possible to prove/disprove the existence of God from a philosophical, or teleological approach. Those of us who are believers are engaged in extrapolating backward, based on the validity of our experiential conversions. We have had the "truth" of God validated in our hearts and minds by the Spirit. Having that basis, the Word of God, for us, is alive and meaningful. To the World it is foolishness. I , personally, think it is a waste of time to try to "argue anyone" into the Kingdom of Heaven. The only reason I engage in this process at all, quite frankly, is to explain the blessing which flow from the life that is Christ. If the Spirit doesn't bless the hearer, then he/she truly won't have "ears to hear" , or to use Biblical terminology, selah.
I Corinthians 1:
Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."[c]
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."[d]
gators, I read somewhere that the public opinion, even on the Left Coast has swung toward coastal drilling. I wonder if you think it will happen? I don't suppose anyone would notice if they did it off Long Beach, but what about those adorable little otters and abalone? With gas prices the way they are, I'm not surprised public opinion is changing. However, I think the topic of offshore drilling is still in the "no chance in hell" category here in the Golden State. If gas prices start hitting $6-7/gallon then we may see this issue getting some traction. We Californians love our cars almost as much as we love our beaches so it has the potential to be a real divisive topic.
As far as otters and abolone, I don't believe the oil rigs alone pose any serious environmental risk to ocean life. I think the bigger issues are the increased risk of an oil spill and the eye-sore these oil rigs create.
Concerning absolute zero...I don't know Wild. I think it is a theoretical number which is unattainable. In other words you can prove that nothing can get below absolute zero but that doesn't mean you can accomplish it in an experiment.
Well...let me clarify. This is my observation: You state that, in the world, there are many opinions about God, after which you make a self-conclusion - because there are so many differing opinions about God and his mode of operation, your (whoever you are speaking to) claims about God cannot be true and/or verified. That's how I interpret you.
No I have never said a person's beliefs or opinion CANNOT be true. I have said certain ideas seem highly illogical to me. I don't know of anyone that has EVER verified their claims about God BUT I do know that an omnipotent God COULD verify anything to anyone (especailly if they were looking for it). So I leave myself open for that possibility however small I now think it to be. I once was not so doubtful.
Well...backing up a minute...clarifying on the rules of engagement (aka: splitting semantic hairs). When one makes a claim, they are defining reality as they understand it.
The semantics here means everything...it's not splitting hairs. If I tell you "This is how it is!"...it's a lot different from "this is how it seems to be"...or "this is what makes logical sense to me". The latter is a statement of opinion and the former is a statement of fact. I am sure I am guilty from time to time but that would be by mistake...not by design...if I do it just point it out and I will change it.
Your claim, as I observe your posts, is that God, if he/she exists, does not communicate, because if he/she did communicate it would be consistent and understood by all, including Cher. My claim is, based on my observation and experience, God does personally communicate. Perhaps I am obtuse, but in our discourse, there has not been claims made on God's behalf, has there?
No Hicks. You are not one to make a lot of claims. I think you (Hicks) might have been the victim of you (plural). I use that a lot but sometimes I mean if you (anyone) say this or that.
Now to answer what you have to say about my OPINION. Again, this is semantically important. It would seem logical to me that an omnipotent and personal relationship craving God would choose more effective methods of establishing His single presence and communicating a consistent message. I am not telling any God what to do and I am not claiming anything on God's behalf. I am simply saying what seems logical to me and that personal evidence I have not noticed. The remaining evidence would be in the form of other people's differing claims. There is not one good solid reason for me to believe in any of that. Illogical (to me), no communication (to me), no communication to my family (whom I trust more than anyone else but myself), a poor choice of vehicle (to my logic) to spread message (imperfect man and over 2,000 years) and of course the differing opinions of the rest of the claim makers inside the same religion let alone the rest of the "false God" believing world.
Cher, I could provide evidence to show you that God communicates with people. I would wager that several of us on this board could provide you with examples of God communication with people. However, I tend to think that if I shared this with you, you would discredit the evidence as speculative. IMO, you would project your personal worldview onto the evidence and consider it flawed.
I have heard some pretty powerful life changing stories in here and I have tried for the most part to leave them be. That being said who elses worldview am I going to apply but my own? Yours? The logic for your evidence will either be flawed or valid on it's own merits not mine.
I've written this previously... If you do not know if God exists nor how or why God would communicate to people, why would you expect to receive personal communication from God? What would motivate you to believe that a 'message' was from God? I see none. If you don't expect to receive a personal communication from God then why/how would you see any evidence for God to communicate with you as in a personal relationship? What would motivate you to look for any evidence of this type of communication?
If you do not know if God exists nor how or why God would communicate to people, why would you expect to anyone else to receive personal communication from God?I don't want to completely write you off (as it pertains to providing God-communication), but...can you see where I'm coming from? No offense intended.
I think I answered this previously. First of all, I DID believe, I TRIED to communicate, and I WANTED a response. Those people who want to sit there and make up inane excuses of why it didn't work or doesn't work are part of the problem. If more people just said I don't know I might believe more of them.
That being said you ask why I would expect anyone to receive personal communication. Because of the claims of others (outside of my loved ones of course). Not because I have seen good personal reason or evidence. In this day and age you (not you) would be better off making any assinine claim that you wanted to about God than to simply have doubt. More illogical stuff to me...that God would punish anyone for having so many EXCELLENT reasons to doubt (certain God's) being that God must have created the reasons for doubt in the first place.
Then you ask "Can I see where you are coming from?". Of course. I spent a good portion of my life a Christian and believing it. There were times when I had no doubts in my youth. The better question might be can you see where I am coming from?
As far as otters and abolone, I don't believe the oil rigs alone pose any serious environmental risk to ocean life. I think the bigger issues are the increased risk of an oil spill and the eye-sore these oil rigs create.
People I have talked to at work, a pretty liberal crowd for the most part want to drill, they also want to let loggers in the forests so we don't breathe smoke for weeks on end. You think the rigs are eyesores, I always thought the ones down by Long Beach were decorated well and looked real nice at night.
Smoove, a question: Why is Mark Redman allowed to touch a baseball at the major league level?
Cher, I do see where you are coming from, God wants us to have faith, this is what makes it so difficult for some people. I truly believe you are seeking him in youir own way, and as you continue your journey, I believe God will reveal himself to you, but it is in his time and place, not yours, not mine, but his.
